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Bad experience with my ccw class
#1
So I signed up for a ccw class at a local range a week before the class started. Showed up 15min. early and sat in the classroom for 40 min. Poked my head out to see what the problem was and the instructor was still at home. Wasn't feeling well and no excuse for why he didn't call either the range or me. I don't want to be mean so I won't post the names unless I don't get satisfaction. Anybody know of a good instructor in SW denver?
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#2
(08-26-2011, 12:03 PM)speedbump Wrote: So I signed up for a ccw class at a local range a week before the class started. Showed up 15min. early and sat in the classroom for 40 min. Poked my head out to see what the problem was and the instructor was still at home. Wasn't feeling well and no excuse for why he didn't call either the range or me. I don't want to be mean so I won't post the names unless I don't get satisfaction. Anybody know of a good instructor in SW denver?

I have trained with Robert, My Wife took her CCW with him.
ABSOLUTELY a great guy and class "A" Instructor


http://www.rwfirearmstraining.com/Site/Home.html

FYI... you wont meet him in a classroom, you will meet him on HIS Range
Firearms training in a classroom makes as much sense as a coastguard station in Kansas.

You arent going to look at a picture and description of a single action and a double action and check boxes... you will learn to fire each and the pros and cons of each.
He will give you hands on training and pointers on your carry weapon of choice.
you will cover everything from Holsters to use of force laws.

Classrooms are great for the paper certificate.
The training is what is going to save your life.
There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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#3
http://www.rwfirearmstraining.com/Site/Watch_Me_Teach.html

for your viewing pleasure
There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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#4
These days there's LOTS of them out there. I don't have a name to give because it's been a while since I had my class and he doesn't teach any longer.

But the reason I wanted to post up here is this........ No matter if you get your CCW or just keep a gun at home for protection or decide OCing is the way for you to go......Get a good gun lawyers name and info!!!! If (God forbid) you ever had to shoot someone the hard part is what follows most times. And as a point in fact, a jury in Colorado Springs just awarded the family of a man shot for robbing a home 270,000 today! And as ridiculous as that seems to anyone with common sense, it happens way to often! :-/
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#5
Sorry to hear about your bad experience we as instructors are held to a higher standard by the public and our selves. and Ape is very correct in saying that you should have a good gun lawyer on hand.
Phoenix Firearms Training
Owner/CEO
phoenixfirearms@gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/phoenixfirearms
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#6
(08-26-2011, 11:10 PM)Ape Wrote: These days there's LOTS of them out there. I don't have a name to give because it's been a while since I had my class and he doesn't teach any longer.

But the reason I wanted to post up here is this........ No matter if you get your CCW or just keep a gun at home for protection or decide OCing is the way for you to go......Get a good gun lawyers name and info!!!! If (God forbid) you ever had to shoot someone the hard part is what follows most times. And as a point in fact, a jury in Colorado Springs just awarded the family of a man shot for robbing a home 270,000 today! And as ridiculous as that seems to anyone with common sense, it happens way to often! :-/

I thought castle doctrine prohibited this?
There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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#7
(08-27-2011, 05:28 AM)Byte Stryke Wrote:
(08-26-2011, 11:10 PM)Ape Wrote: These days there's LOTS of them out there. I don't have a name to give because it's been a while since I had my class and he doesn't teach any longer.

But the reason I wanted to post up here is this........ No matter if you get your CCW or just keep a gun at home for protection or decide OCing is the way for you to go......Get a good gun lawyers name and info!!!! If (God forbid) you ever had to shoot someone the hard part is what follows most times. And as a point in fact, a jury in Colorado Springs just awarded the family of a man shot for robbing a home 270,000 today! And as ridiculous as that seems to anyone with common sense, it happens way to often! :-/

I thought castle doctrine prohibited this?

You and I both! I'm not sure of the exact details yet. I just saw the news blurb last night about it. But somehow or someway the BG's family was awarded 270 grand because their scumbag son, father, brother, or whatever he is, tried to rob someone's house and got shot and killed for it.
I've just never understood how anyone with common sense could sit on a jury and agree to pay the family of a BG money for being a BG and getting killed for it!?!?!? I don't care what the lawyers or judge told me the law said......I'd hold out till the cows came home to not give them any money!
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#8
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2769594/posts

Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit (CO)
gazette.com ^ | 26 August, 2011 | LANCE BENZEL

Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2011 6:55:22 AM by marktwain

An El Paso County jury on Friday awarded nearly $300,000 to the daughter of a burglar who was fatally shot in 2009 while breaking into an auto lot.

Parents of the victim, Robert Johnson Fox, embraced their attorneys after a judge announced the jury’s verdict, capping a two-week-long civil trial in which business owner Jovan Milanovic and two relatives were painted as vigilantes who plotted a deadly ambush rather than let authorities deal with a string of recent burglaries.

Phillip and Sue Fox, who filed suit for wrongful death in 2010 on behalf of Fox’s 3-year-old daughter, called the jury’s award a victory in their fight to seek accountability for the death of their son, who they say never posed a threat to the heavily armed men.

“Rob was in the wrong place doing the wrong thing, but the punishment didn’t fit the crime,” Sue Fox said afterward. “I can’t excuse his actions, but he didn’t deserve to be executed.”
The exact amount of the award was $269,500, for factors such as loss of companionship and loss of future earnings. The family will also be awarded some of the costs associated with the more than yearlong legal battle.

The jury of three men and three women deliberated for 2½ days over closely contested testimony about the predawn shooting on April 19, 2009.

Fox, 20, was shot after he and a friend scaled a fence to get inside Southwest Auto Sales at 2444 Platte Place in the city’s Knob Hill neighborhood. According to the accomplice, Brian Corbin, they had smoked methamphetamine and were looking to steal anything to buy more drugs.

Corbin testified he saw two armed men charge out of a building and run in their direction, one of them shouting “we’re gonna get you” in an obscenity-laced threat. Corbin, who escaped by climbing over a car and jumping a fence, said he felt a bullet pass by him as someone fired four gunshots.

Fox was standing inside a small shed when a .45-caliber rifle bullet passed through the shed’s door and pierced his heart.

Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men, his father Ljuban Milanovic and brother-in-law Srdjan Milanovic.

The men are refugees who came to the United States from the former Yugoslavia in 1998.

Jurors found that Fox’s death was the result of “willful and deliberate” conduct by Jovan Milanovic, who was accused of firing the rifle, and Novak, who supplied the semiautomatic Heckler & Koch that Milanovic used in the killing.

Only Ljuban Milanovic emerged without a judgment against him.

The jurors declined to comment after the trial.

"It's been a long two weeks," one said before getting on an elevator.

The three men were accused of keeping an armed vigil over the auto lot and firing on the first burglars they saw. The men were angry over a series of thefts that began when someone broke in a week earlier and stole keys to customers’ automobiles as well as keys to buildings on the property.

Car stereos were taken in the days that followed, according to testimony.

Under Colorado’s self-defense laws, the use of deadly force is justified only under the “reasonable belief” that it’s necessary to prevent serious bodily injury or death. The jury found that none of the men had a legitimate claim of self-defense.

Property rights are not a lawful defense for using deadly force in Colorado, and the state’s so-called Make My Day law, which sets lower standard for using force, applies to households, not businesses.

For the plaintiff's attorneys, Terry Rector and Jennifer Stock, Friday's verdict ended an emotionally draining fight for the girl, Sidney Richardson, who has been cared for by the elder Foxes for the past year.

Rector, of Colorado Springs, had represented Fox on traffic matters, and said his death came as a blow.

"I can see him sitting in my office today," an emotional Rector said as participants filed out of the courthouse.

"This is a victory for Sidney Richardson. It's the only measure of justice we have - we cannot bring her father back."

Said Stock: "This jury didn't let sympathy and bias influence them. That's why we got the correct verdict that follows the law."

Milanovic and his father told police a week before the shooting they would shoot any intruders who returned. Police say the men concealed the rifle in the trunk of a car so well that a police detective initially missed it during a search.

The 4th Judicial District Attorney's Office declined to file charges in the shooting, and instead sent the case to a grand jury, which decided against returning an indictment, effectively clearing the trio of criminal wrongdoing.

The civil award has no criminal implications for the Milanovics or Novak.

Defense attorneys John P. Craver and Chelsey Burns declined to comment.
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#9
yeah... thats not covered under Castle Doctrine... or even self defense.
I might see it if the business was open and it was a hold-up situation.

I agree with the "ambush" Theory. I Won't cry for the Buglar that died... I can only hope the one that lived will wake the fuck up.
This is a case of stupid people making gun owners look bad.
There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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#10
(08-27-2011, 04:44 PM)Byte Stryke Wrote: yeah... thats not covered under Castle Doctrine... or even self defense.
I might see it if the business was open and it was a hold-up situation.

I agree with the "ambush" Theory. I Won't cry for the Buglar that died... I can only hope the one that lived will wake the frac up.
This is a case of stupid people making gun owners look bad.

I agree....Once I read this news report it sounded a bit less offensive to me. But even though these guys went about protecting their property in a really incorrect way.......I still think the judgement for monetary compensation is ludicrous!
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#11
(08-28-2011, 12:37 AM)Ape Wrote: I agree....Once I read this news report it sounded a bit less offensive to me. But even though these guys went about protecting their property in a really incorrect way.......I still think the judgement for monetary compensation is ludicrous!


slippery slope arguments aside, I believe this is justified.
I understand the right to protect your property. Call the Cops. Stand there, wait and IF you are placed into a point of danger, then use of deadly force is justified.
Hunting burglars in your lot is not.

Just like you cannot shoot someone stealing your garden hose from your yard, you cannot shoot someone burgling your business yard. Now if you go outside to investigate a noise and someone ambushes your with a weapon, feel free to make holes.

There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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#12
(08-28-2011, 09:31 AM)Byte Stryke Wrote:
(08-28-2011, 12:37 AM)Ape Wrote: I agree....Once I read this news report it sounded a bit less offensive to me. But even though these guys went about protecting their property in a really incorrect way.......I still think the judgement for monetary compensation is ludicrous!


slippery slope arguments aside, I believe this is justified.
I understand the right to protect your property. Call the Cops. Stand there, wait and IF you are placed into a point of danger, then use of deadly force is justified.
Hunting burglars in your lot is not.

Just like you cannot shoot someone stealing your garden hose from your yard, you cannot shoot someone burgling your business yard. Now if you go outside to investigate a noise and someone ambushes your with a weapon, feel free to make holes.

I have to agree. Extremely poor judgement. One of the first things that was made very clear in the CCW class I took was that the use of deadly force is not justified in any situation where the person creating the threat to you is trying to get away - as soon as the crooks tried to leave, the threat was no longer legally there to use the firearms against them. They should have held off shooting and just called the police. The other huge mistake they made was to yell out threats. By doing so, they made themselves the aggressors instead of the crooks - making it look as though they were just looking for a reason to shoot someone. As gun owners, we all need to be careful with not just what we do, but also what we say. That, I'm pretty sure, was a large impact in the outcome of this situation.
Duct tape is like "The Force." It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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#13
Oh I'm not disagreeing that these guys went about it wrong........ I'm all for penalizing these jack wads with some fines and jail time. But I still disagree with awarding a family of a known drug addicted thieving thug loser money because his choices in life were going to get him killed or in prison for life sooner or later.
Now if it were a couple of stupid kids who had no prior stupid choices made in life and these idiots shot them......Then yes, I'd be all for making them also pay money for killing one of them.
I'm also very aware of what I can and can not do if I (god forbid) ever had to draw my weapon, much less use it. I have a decent lawyer I've had some good discussions with as well as a few LEO friends that keep me informed as correctly as they know how. wink
I know it almost sounds like I'm being arbitrary on who should be punished how......But to me it's all about common sense. And laws all too often ignore common sense when they get plugged up with loophole seeking lawyers out for only one thing....MONEY!
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#14
(08-28-2011, 06:36 PM)Ape Wrote: Oh I'm not disagreeing that these guys went about it wrong........ I'm all for penalizing these jack wads with some fines and jail time. But I still disagree with awarding a family of a known drug addicted thieving thug loser money because his choices in life were going to get him killed or in prison for life sooner or later.
Now if it were a couple of stupid kids who had no prior stupid choices made in life and these idiots shot them......Then yes, I'd be all for making them also pay money for killing one of them.
I'm also very aware of what I can and can not do if I (god forbid) ever had to draw my weapon, much less use it. I have a decent lawyer I've had some good discussions with as well as a few LEO friends that keep me informed as correctly as they know how. wink
I know it almost sounds like I'm being arbitrary on who should be punished how......But to me it's all about common sense. And laws all too often ignore common sense when they get plugged up with loophole seeking lawyers out for only one thing....MONEY!

Good ole "common sense" - unfortunately it seems to have gone on a vacation with "personal responsibility", and they are only making rare appearances these days.

After re-reading what I posted, I guess I wasn't very clear. I do not support the family of the person that was trespassing and looking for something to steal getting paid for that criminal activity resulting in the person being shot and killed. I am supportive of punishment for the person(s) that shot the "alleged" scumbag, resulting in his death, but only because what they did was illegal at the time they did it.

There are many times that I wish we could revert partially back to the old west days where if someone broke into your property (personal or business) to steal from you, you had every right (if you chose) to ensure that they were both unsuccessful at it and that they would never do it again. There would be a lot less of this BS happening. Bat Instead, as property owners we are now required to make sure that our property is safe for someone to break into, because if they slip and fall, get bit by the dog, cut themselves crawling through the window they broke, etc we will need to pay for their medical bills/recovery/therapy since they won't be able to do the "only thing they know" to support their family. All that being said, we must all be careful that in the event we ever have to use deadly force, we do so because it is justified. As Ape has stated he does, it is our responsibility to make sure we understand what we can and can't do in accordance with the laws.
Duct tape is like "The Force." It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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#15
(08-29-2011, 12:24 PM)alang Wrote:
(08-28-2011, 06:36 PM)Ape Wrote: Oh I'm not disagreeing that these guys went about it wrong........ I'm all for penalizing these jack wads with some fines and jail time. But I still disagree with awarding a family of a known drug addicted thieving thug loser money because his choices in life were going to get him killed or in prison for life sooner or later.
Now if it were a couple of stupid kids who had no prior stupid choices made in life and these idiots shot them......Then yes, I'd be all for making them also pay money for killing one of them.
I'm also very aware of what I can and can not do if I (god forbid) ever had to draw my weapon, much less use it. I have a decent lawyer I've had some good discussions with as well as a few LEO friends that keep me informed as correctly as they know how. wink
I know it almost sounds like I'm being arbitrary on who should be punished how......But to me it's all about common sense. And laws all too often ignore common sense when they get plugged up with loophole seeking lawyers out for only one thing....MONEY!

Good ole "common sense" - unfortunately it seems to have gone on a vacation with "personal responsibility", and they are only making rare appearances these days.

After re-reading what I posted, I guess I wasn't very clear. I do not support the family of the person that was trespassing and looking for something to steal getting paid for that criminal activity resulting in the person being shot and killed. I am supportive of punishment for the person(s) that shot the "alleged" scumbag, resulting in his death, but only because what they did was illegal at the time they did it.

There are many times that I wish we could revert partially back to the old west days where if someone broke into your property (personal or business) to steal from you, you had every right (if you chose) to ensure that they were both unsuccessful at it and that they would never do it again. There would be a lot less of this BS happening. Bat Instead, as property owners we are now required to make sure that our property is safe for someone to break into, because if they slip and fall, get bit by the dog, cut themselves crawling through the window they broke, etc we will need to pay for their medical bills/recovery/therapy since they won't be able to do the "only thing they know" to support their family. All that being said, we must all be careful that in the event we ever have to use deadly force, we do so because it is justified. As Ape has stated he does, it is our responsibility to make sure we understand what we can and can't do in accordance with the laws.
I couldn't agree more! Thumbsup

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#16
Back to the OP.... hope you got a good class lined up.

Sorry for the Threadjacked
There never was a bad man that had ability for good service.

-Edmund Burke 1788-02-15

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
Life never forgives weaknesses.
-Adolf Hitler
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