Poll: options...
Make the slide lock work in one, but not the other
the premature locking is not a big issue in one platform
go AK style, no slide lock at all
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Public input needed regarding a new product
#1
I am looking for input with a product that i will be bringing to market soon. I am going to keep the description vague, however it is a magazine that functions in 2 popular handgun platforms, and with 9mm, .40 s&w, and .357 sig.

in order to make this magazine have such a wide range of applications, as well as being able to be sold here in state, it has one flaw...in one of the platforms it has a tendency to prematurely lock the slide back with one round left in the magazine. unfortuantly this issue cannot be corrected while maintaining its wide variety of caliber acceptance as well as being able to be sold in state.

i can make the magazines so that they simply will not lock the slide back, even on an empty magazine. functionally and in use this seems to have no negative effects, given that most people do not normally recognize when the slide locks back anyway, and have to visually check to notice this. without a last round slide lock, when theres no bang, you know you are out...pretty much the same principle as an AK based rifle.

what i am wondering is if not having a last round slide lock would be a major issue, given all that this magazine offers.

to be more specific, it will function in all caliber Beretta 92 and 96 based firearms, as well as the Sig p224, 226, 228 and 229 platforms in all three calibers. 
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#2
Sounds interesting. I'd like to see a Glock 9/40/357 model though. I also think your market would be bigger versus the community. Just my .02 though.


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#3
I'd never send something to market like this. Locking back with one round still in the slide is a malfunction in most peoples' eyes--any stoppage with ammo still in the gun is bad. And if word got out that you marketed it expecting this to happen, you'd be absolutely eviscerated for knowingly selling "crap."

Making the slide lock work in only one platform again looks like it's defective because it "doesn't work" some of the time. People hate it when the slide lock doesn't work on a platform where it's expected. I'd prefer it over locking back prematurely, and if I knew it going in, I could make a decision whether to tolerate it. But your choice is then to make sure it's well known (at which point many people will scoff) or not known (in which case many will call it a lemon).

You might manage to sell it if it's AK style--at least it will be consistent, it will look like it's working as designed. Some will simply hate the failure to lock back, but they will avoid the product, rather than buying it and feeling like they got burned.

But even there...the only people who will ever want to buy it are people who already own both types of guns, UNLESS you can sell it for less than other mags. If I only own a Beretta, I won't want a mag that doesn't lock it back, because being interoperable in a Sig is pointless with no Sigs around. And vice versa. If the magazine is really, really cheap, however, I could possibly be persuaded. It'd be a tradeoff, lots of money for a mag that locks back versus much less money for a mag that doesn't but otherwise feeds reliably. Without being a "bargain," you have nothing to offer to anyone other than people who happen to own both kinds of guns, and your market will be restricted to them--and how many of them will be interested when they hear it doesn't lock back? It still had better be pretty doggone inexpensive.

Honestly, I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Make sure it works properly in both guns, and is priced competitively, and you would have something that Beretta owners would buy, and Sig owners would buy, as well as people that happen to own both. Otherwise, you're asking someone to accept a "malfunction" for little-to-no gain.
Known as SteveInCO on national fora (changed it here because "in Colorado" is the default).

CZ-75, Glock 20, Mossberg 590, S&W M&P AR-15, PTR-91, DSA FAL, Springfield M1A... and lots of other goodies.
Biggun
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#4
Have to totally agree with 308 fan.

I would never buy such a thing.

Used mags that work are relatively cheap.
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#5
i agree with you 100%. this is not where i wanted it to be, however due to some major differences between the two platforms this is where i have ended up. i do understand the limited market, and thats fine with me...the idea behind these mags is not to make me millions, but provide a more adaptable feeding system for individuals/groups who use different pistol platforms. it may also serve as an incentive to those who own one platform to get the other, since both will be able to share the same mags. magazine compatibility is never a bad thing.

i have done a fair bit of thinking/researching into how most people shoot, and many times it seems people do not recognize when the slide locks back, its only when they go to pull the trigger and theres no bang that they notice, and in many ways having no slide lock would be very similar in use.

the reality is that the nature of this product is true of everything else, which is nothing is perfect. these mags have alot to offer, while really only having one draw back...in fact, going 'ak style' with them may in fact allow me to adapt them to not only the beretta 92/96 and sig p224/226/228/229 platforms, but the cz-75 platform as well (need to do the testing before i can confirm this however)

as far as peice goes, i wont put a number to it, but they would be roughly the same (more or less depending on where you get them) as factory mags
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#6
(07-24-2015, 03:33 PM)Nemesis Wrote: i have done a fair bit of thinking/researching into how most people shoot, and many times it seems people do not recognize when the slide locks back, its only when they go to pull the trigger and theres no bang that they notice, and in many ways having no slide lock would be very similar in use.

Not to be a jerk, but you kind of sound like you looked for evidence to verify your preconceived conclusion.   You're kind of saying- I'm going to introduce ammunition that isn't accurate, but I noticed that on the range most of the shots people make don't hit the bullseye anyways.... and I'll sell the ammo at the same price as the good stuff.

"Nothing is perfect" perfection and a major flaw are comparing apples to oranges. You've got a really broad measuring stick to what people expect to be perfect. There are a few things that have to work with guns that you might not consider a big deal and nothing is perfect but the public will be extremely critical with your product. Stove pipes, failures to eject, hang fires are all just 'nothing is perfect' but deal breakers too. People are critical enough of inferior products that are cheap, put a product on the market at the same price as a magazine that is actually perfect and you're going to get crushed by social media and reviews.

You seem to be glossing over the 'leaves one round in the magazine' too.
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#7
no jerkness taken lol...i havent glossed over the 'one round left' issue...as i said, the issue is only present when the follower is made to try and work the slide lock in both platforms. please do not take this as a means to be lazy, i am currently still working on trying to find a solution to this issue...however at the current time there does not seem to be a way. i am also not trying to dance around the fact that i understand that it would be ideal for it to work both slide locks perfectly fine, however i dont find the concept of a mag that does not lock the slide back to be a absolute deal breaker, nor a critical or dangerous situation...but yes, it is a flaw. the whole point of this topic was to get an outside view of if this flaw would be out shined by the positives.
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#8
The more "universal" you can make it, the better. Glock. S&W M&P, Beretta, CZ, Sig, whatever XD does that's double stack... if you can get it to work in all or most of them, I think a failure to lock back might be forgivable by more people, plus your potential market goes up with every possible pair you have. If the only thing that prevents it working (even with no lockback) with one of those guns is the follower, throw that different follower into the package.

With Sig and Beretta, there's one possible pair of owned guns this might work with (and I happen to know someone who fits that). Add a third gun (you mentioned CZ) and now there are all the Sig and CZ, and Beretta and CZ owners out there as well (and I myself happen to fit one of those categories). That's THREE TIMES as many possible situations you can chase. Add a fourth... that means adding three more pairs, redoubling your potential market. The number of pair combos goes up, 1, 3, 6, 10... (The mathematical formula is X!/(2*(X-2)!) where ! is factorial, 4! = 4 x 3 x 2 x 1, but that reduces to simply X*(X-1)/2.)

The message I hope you're getting here is to make it work in as many different guns as possible. But it should be consistent. Someone won't want to work two different guns, remembering that when it locks back on gun A, he can drop the slide and fire again, but on gun B, he has to reload--He'll be pissed if he's using gun B, drops the slide because he's used to gun A, hears "click" and has to both reload and rack the slide instead of reloading and dropping.

I'd say your only path to a marketable product is to make it work in as many guns as possible (pushing your sole advantage to the max), but make it clear it works like an AK. People might be willing to make that trade for interoperability if enough different guns are involved that theirs are covered, AND if they are told up front about it. Finding out afterwards will piss them off.

A possible add on--followers for the individual guns that hold them back (sell 'em individually for a couple of bucks, or as a group for a discount). People have the option of adapting their one magazine to work properly in any of their guns, or switching back and forth on the fly (with no lockback) by leaving the original follower in.
Known as SteveInCO on national fora (changed it here because "in Colorado" is the default).

CZ-75, Glock 20, Mossberg 590, S&W M&P AR-15, PTR-91, DSA FAL, Springfield M1A... and lots of other goodies.
Biggun
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#9
while having that much compatibility would be awesome, its not possible. there are several technical hurtles to overcome even jusf making a magazine work in two platforms, let alone more. you have to consider feed angle, magazine angle, width, thickness, height, material, lock up location, feed lip geometry, sprig tension, follower design, base plate design...just to name a few issues...even just removing the slide lock brings on new issues...nothing is really as simple as it sounds.

i did some testing yesterday with this mag in a cz75, it could work in terms of feeding and fitting, however because of how the magazine catch works on the cz, it would complicate its function in the beretta platforms...you would need to hold the berettas magazine release in while inserting the mag otherwise the beretta would lock to the sig/cz slot since the cz and beretta both lock to the side of the mag, vs the sig which locks to the front radious. this isse even before getting to the fact that the czs slide lock sits even higher than the sigs, much less the beretta, and activates from a much further forward position.

the difference between the sigs and berettas slide lock, in terms of activation height, is about 1/4"...this is quite alot, and why making it work in both is so difficult. if the shelf on the follower is short enough to work normally in the beretta, than its so short that it wont work in the sig...and if its tall enough to work the sig, than it prematurely hits the beretta. its a problem of finding a middle ground, which involved alot of testing and work, given that they are not only different in terms of activation height but spring tension of the slide locks themselves, and the slide lock shape.

while i do like your idea of adding extra followers to do different things, that now forces me to raise the prices of these magazines...followers are not cheap, their usually $5 or more...and that is a cost that must be added to the selling price. im sure you understand that if it costs $25 for the base, then more for refinishing and modification, then more to start adding more followers...you now have a market price that can easily hit over $65 or more, which is unacceptable.

the whole point of this is that i can see where the criticism is coming from, and it is justified...however i would just like to make it clear what the technical limitations are here so that you may better understand the perspective on my side.
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#10
I was thinking of extra followers that would lock one gun (of the many) back as an added thing purchased separately, not part of the basic package (a mag that works in AK mode in a variety of guns). (I did mention the possibility of throwing in an extra follower if it was necessary to get the thing to work at all in some particularly popular gun, but that was different.)
Known as SteveInCO on national fora (changed it here because "in Colorado" is the default).

CZ-75, Glock 20, Mossberg 590, S&W M&P AR-15, PTR-91, DSA FAL, Springfield M1A... and lots of other goodies.
Biggun
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#11
just an update, i may have fixed the issue...i will know after some further testing...however it looks promising. if it works, than the magazine will function normally in both berettas and sigs
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