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NFA SBR and other fun stuff
#1
does anybody here know about the process...as in, there are some great black friday deals on lowers right now.....but I have not set up an NFA trust (which is the route I'd like to go) for SBR's and other NFA items.

Does a lower have to be DROS'd as an SBR and a specific caliber, or can I buy a lower (or two) now and build whatever I end up, be it 5.56 or 300blk or 6.8 or 6.5...? Once I've made the proper application and paperwork and $200 etc....

again, just not sure if I need the NFA trust before buying the lower and having it DROS'd
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#2
Buy a lower. Any lower. At any point in time, get it engraved with your trust name (there are some things you should know about names, I won't cover them right now), city and state that you live in and, if it's different from what's already marked on the lower, the caliber (if the lower is marked "multi" for example, you need to engrave "300 BLK" if that's what you're building). Determine barrel and overall length (if a collapsible stock, the length with the stock deployed). Then fill out a form 1 (or efile a form 1) and wait until it you get a stamp.

Then build it. Once you have an SBR, you can put any length barrel or caliber on it as a top end.

There are a lot of fine points as well, but this is the overall process.

O2
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
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#3
I appreciate the reply,yea there is still a lot to learn on my end. Hopefully I find a good lawyer to write up the trust and educate me...
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#4
I signed up with US Law Shield for legal protection. They also set up trusts for a pretty good price. I plan on using them to do my trust also.
Where can you carry? Check the editable COGO Carry Map
When in doubt. JFC.

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#5
So I'll ask the dumb question that I could probably just Google.

Why set up a trust?

Note: No stamp-required toys here so I honestly haven't researched it.

What does it buy you against laws that can be changed by vote at any time? What does it buy you assuming the law stays the same it is today?

Just on the face of it, it seems a quick way for lawyers to make a quick buck that really doesn't amount to much if the law changes.

If one could find a law firm that would guarantee their work and refund the money if the intended purpose fails, well... We all know lawyers don't work like that.
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#6
To the OP, why not avoid the SBR-related NFA issues and build an AR pistol with the Sig brace? Cheaper, faster and way less paperwork for pretty much the same result.
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#7
(12-02-2014, 07:43 PM)DenverPilot Wrote: So I'll ask the dumb question that I could probably just Google.

Why set up a trust?

Note: No stamp-required toys here so I honestly haven't researched it.

What does it buy you against laws that can be changed by vote at any time? What does it buy you assuming the law stays the same it is today?

Just on the face of it, it seems a quick way for lawyers to make a quick buck that really doesn't amount to much if the law changes.

If one could find a law firm that would guarantee their work and refund the money if the intended purpose fails, well... We all know lawyers don't work like that.

Well, since no one else wants to answer.

The best part about a trust in my opinion is that the trust has ownership rather than an individual. This means that anyone that is listed in the trust can possess and use the item. Doing it the individual way means that you and only you can possess and use item.

Number 2 best thing, a trust does not require a CLEO sign off. In some areas, like Arapahoe county, the CLEO will not sign off on NFA.

Number 3 best thing. Online filing. Faster and reduced wait time.

Yes the ATF can change rules. In fact they proposed a rule change that would require a trust to obtain CLEO sign off. Two years later and they are still replying to all the feedback they received from public comment. Legally they have to do this. The decision is expected to come out middle of next year.

If that rule does get changed existing trusts will be grandfathered in.
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#8
Thanks Beau, I've been meaning to reply but haven't had time.

The key advantage to a trust (and some people create a corporation to do the same thing*) is that multiple people can possess the Title II firearm.

You used to have the ability to add people to the trust such that if you wanted to loan someone your suppressor to a friend for a short time, you'd add them to the trust, loan the the suppressor and when you got it back you'd remove them from the trust, easy-peasy. Not anymore. The Colorado background check law that got rammed down our throats last year nixed that. Now to add someone to the trust you have to have to do a background check.

Worse, to add an item to the trust [in Colorado] you now have to do a background check on each and every person in the trust EVERY time you want to add an item to the trust. This makes adding things to the trust expensive. Which of course is the goal of gun control: To discourage ownership if you're inclined to follow the law.

As Beau mentioned, trusts do not require CLEO permission, allowing you to own Title II firearms in jurisdictions where the the CLEO thinks their oath to uphold the constitution was a quaint, superficial ceremony.

BTW Beau, I believe the CLEO change proposed for trusts is CLEO notification, not signature.

O2

*Why I don't recommend corporations: Forget to pay your incorporation fees on time (due every year) and the corporation legally dissolves and presto! You're a felon because you illegally possess of Title II firearms.
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
Reply
#9
(12-05-2014, 10:18 AM)O2HeN2 Wrote: Worse, to add an item to the trust [in Colorado] you now have to do a background check on each and every person in the trust EVERY time you want to add an item to the trust. This makes adding things to the trust expensive. Which of course is the goal of gun control: To discourage ownership if you're inclined to follow the law.
.

One of the things I like aboutUS Law Shield is that they only charge $20 to make changes to the trust.
Where can you carry? Check the editable COGO Carry Map
When in doubt. JFC.

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#10
(12-05-2014, 10:29 AM)Beau Wrote: One of the things I like aboutUS Law Shield is that they only charge $20 to make changes to the trust.
It's not changing the trust, it's paying for the BG check for N number of people on the trust every time you add something to the trust. So if you have 4 trustees and you get a new SBR, on top of the $200 you have to cough up you need to pay $40 (bare minimum) for a BG check on the 4 trustees in order to add the SBR to the trust.

O2
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
Reply
#11
(12-05-2014, 11:29 AM)O2HeN2 Wrote: It's not changing the trust, it's paying for the BG check for N number of people on the trust every time you add something to the trust. So if you have 4 trustees and you get a new SBR, on top of the $200 you have to cough up you need to pay $40 (bare minimum) for a BG check on the 4 trustees in order to add the SBR to the trust.

O2

I understand. I'm saying that the reduced fee to make changes to the trust helps offset the costs of background checks.
Where can you carry? Check the editable COGO Carry Map
When in doubt. JFC.

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#12
Thanks guys. I get it.


(Have been involved with a number of LLC setups over the years, for various co-owned things, but never looked up the Trust thing for NFA stuff.

I suppose it also helps having a Trust in place between spouses if one passes away, thinking through it?

That brings up a side question. If an individual has an NFA item legally and dies, can an Estate hold it?
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#13
(12-10-2014, 03:06 AM)DenverPilot Wrote: That brings up a side question. If an individual has an NFA item legally and dies, can an Estate hold it?
Rephrase: If the settlor of the trust dies, what happens is specified in the trust. Typically the trust continues to exist allowing the other trustees to maintain possession of the NFA items, either for continued enjoyment or liquidation.

O2
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
Reply
#14
(12-10-2014, 02:50 PM)O2HeN2 Wrote: Rephrase: If the settlor of the trust dies, what happens is specified in the trust. Typically the trust continues to exist allowing the other trustees to maintain possession of the NFA items, either for continued enjoyment or liquidation.

O2

Yeah I understood. I was more interested in what happens without the Trust, thus the reason I said it was a side question.
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#15
(12-12-2014, 03:54 AM)DenverPilot Wrote: Yeah I understood. I was more interested in what happens without the Trust, thus the reason I said it was a side question.
Ah. If specifically called out in a will, an individually owned NFA item can be transferred to someone else tax free on a Form 5. This can happen only once.

If your NFA items are not specifically called out in the will, then they go into probate like anything else, and there's a mess while the item hangs in possession limbo, etc.

Without a trust, I've never heard a good answer on who can can legally possess NFA items between the owners death and the From 5 being approved. The ATF appears [today] to have a "look the other way" attitude while an estate is being settled. With a trust any other trustee can hold onto the items, no problem.

The only good news is that Form 5s are approved VERY fast.

O2

Ps. Speaking in general here, not NFA... Probate costs money, no ifs, ands or buts. Anyone who expects to die someday should have a general trust setup to seamlessly transfer their money and possessions to others to avoid probate. That's just good estate planning. This general trust should not contain your NFA items, they should be in a trust dedicated to specifically handle those items.
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
Reply
#16
Good idea 02. I never thought about a trust for kick the bucket planning.
Where can you carry? Check the editable COGO Carry Map
When in doubt. JFC.

Reply
#17
(12-12-2014, 11:12 AM)Beau Wrote: Good idea 02. I never thought about a trust for kick the bucket planning.
It ain't cheap, but in the grand scheme of things it ain't expensive either. I just had a friend complete a not simple (don't want to go as far as to call it "complex") trust for the cost of about $2500 and that included a will (which just sweeps everything not specified into the trust), various power of attorney papers, living will, medical proxies (she has no family left, so willing friends will have to make medical decisions if she's unable to do so herself) and transfer of her house into the trust. A couple other documents as well that I can't remember off the top of my head.

My parents forced :) trusts upon us kids by specifying in their trust that monies could only be distributed into trusts setup by their kids -- and their trust gave us a stipend to create our trusts.

Just putting that out there for parents that may be thinking of setting up a trust! :)

O2
When seconds count, the police are mere minutes away...
They'll never take your "hunting rifle", they'll call it a "sniper rifle" first.
Gun registration is gun confiscation in slow motion.
Zero failures comes at infinite cost.
You are the FIRST responder. Police, fire and medical are SECOND responders.
By eliminating fear of guns you'll put fear back in criminals.
Reply
#18
Whether a Trust is needed or worth it also depends on other things. If there is only one heir and no debts, Colorado Probate is "simplified" and it's mostly a paper shuffling game. Even debts are no big deal if the Estate has enough liquidity to pay them off.

It's worth checking with an Attorney, but one can also assess the what-ifs themselves, and see what's needed if one is organized and detail-oriented, enough. It's morbid, but play the "okay, I'm squashed by an out of control 18 wheeler tonight" game... What would your loved ones have to do after that? Walk through it. Make sure the real estate is titled properly with joint tenancy with rights of survivorship, etc. If life insurance,,make sure folks know where the policy is, it'll have a phone number and instructions on how to surrender it, etc etc etc. It's pretty easy to figure out what might be a pain in the rear and fix it ahead of time. Trusts are just one of many tactics to accomplish that.

Having an Attorney handle Probate may not be anything other than an expensive convenience, or... It can save the day, depending on circumstances. We overpaid for an Attorney for one Probate and that didn't bother us, for the convenience factor. Plus, filing in rural areas far from home can be more complex than filing things locally. His paralegal had not a clue how to do it, there's an automated computer system for it in most metro areas. Rural areas, you might have to use the Pony Express to send real paper to a judge's clerk. ;)

My wife's dad made a good living as a Probate Attorney before he retired, long ago, but he admitted openly that Probate in Colorado wasn't difficult anymore after changes in the 70s and 80s.

Where he really made his money was restructuring assets to avoid taxation prior to death (in really large estates, passing the money before death as gifts), and battles between siblings over dear old mom or dad's assets.

The lawyers ALL get paid well in that latter scenario.

Best I ever heard from him was the guy who was incarcerated for life with little possibility of parole, who's siblings tried to cut him out of a massive asset pool. He had nothing better to do from jail than to hire lawyers to mess with his siblings with the money they had allowed him to have. Parents never updated the Will, and he prevailed. Multi-millionaire prisoner.

That trick of forcing trusts is cute. Haha. Like your parent's style. LOL.
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