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Trespass and display of weapons?
#1
Saw this on facebook.

Out of respect for the privacy of the individual who posted this I will summarize and not post verbatim.

A pair of hikers were out camping the night before a hike while on an excursion to climb a 14'er. Inadvertently they camped 20 feet over a boundary/land line and did not realize they were trespassing.

Apparently the landowner noticed their camp fire and came out and confronted them. He did not point his weapon at them, but he did hold it up while it was still in the holster and basically told them to get off his land.

Not sure if that was with or without contingencies, but the poster did say he was "blackmailed" after the weapon was displayed. So I presume the landowner told them to get off the land before he shot them.

From what I can tell this is not legal in any aspect what the landowner did.

http://search.jurisearch.com/NLLXML/getcode.asp?datatype=S&statecd=CO&sessionyr=2012&TOCId=12363&userid=GUEST9&cvfilename&noheader=1&Interface=NLL

Prohibited Use of Weapons

There are certain things you cannot do with weapons. You may be charged with prohibited use of a weapon if you are accused of:

*Aiming a firearm at someone,

*Recklessly discharging a firearm or bow and arrow,

*Setting a trap or loaded gun to go off when tripped and leaving it unattended,

*Knowingly swinging or aiming throwing stars or nunchuks

This is a Class 2 misdemeanor and is punishable by 3 months to one year in jail and fines of $250-$1,000.

Ref: CRS 18-12-106


Also,

http://search.jurisearch.com/NLLXML/getcode.asp?datatype=S&statecd=CO&sessionyr=2012&TOCId=11734&userid=GUEST9&cvfilename&noheader=1&Interface

18-1-705. Use of physical force in defense of premises.

A person in possession or control of any building, realty, or other premises, or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that it is reasonably necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of an unlawful trespass by the other person in or upon the building, realty, or premises. However, he may use deadly force only in defense of himself or another as described in section 18-1-704, or when he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the trespasser to commit first degree arson.

link 18-1-704
http://search.jurisearch.com/NLLXML/getcode.asp?userid=GUEST9&interface&statecd=CO&codesec=18-1-704&sessionyr=2012&Title=18&datatype=S&noheader=1&nojumpmsg=0



what do you guys think? Is the landowner in the right or wrong?


Obviously, he is entitled to investigate, he is entitled and legal to be in possession of firearms. He's also in his right to question unauthorized trespass on his land. But I don't believe someone simply trespassing on land gives a landowner the right to brandish a firearm, display it in a manner that is perceived as threatening (if someone holds up their gun as if to show they mean business, I will definitely feel threatened) or make threats.

Castle Doctrine applies to "INSIDE YOUR HOME". Now if the landowner is on his land he is being threatened or accosted, then he has no duty to retreat under the stand your ground statute.

But this is hardly the case here. A pair of campers in the middle of the night far away from the house or any other out buildings is hardly construed as "imminent fear of death or bodily injury" which is required to justify a self-defense shooting.

Neither hiker was armed, neither was violent, menacing, or confrontational. Both according to the post were polite, cordial and apologetic for trespassing and agreed to leave as quickly as possible.

I'm almost sure of it that the landowner is legally in the wrong here for the weapons part. Being a landowner is not license to be a jackass with a firearm. Add in the fact, the landowner failed to notify the Sheriff when he noticed the people from his home before heading out to investigate on his own accord.

What if one of the hikers had their carry permit and once they saw the firearm had felt threatened and shot the landowner?

How does that one go down in court?

I think is an excellent example of something that could plausibly happen.

Discuss!
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
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#2
People have been shooting people for being on their land around this State for a lot longer than they haven't. ;)

What does "holding it up in the holster" mean?

And did the hiker ever even get a look at the thing? Was the hiker a gun-knowledgeable person?

I'm pretty sure one could scare off most trespassers with an unloaded air pistol in a holster these days, with all the gun paranoia.

The vast majority of folk would not know the difference. Definitely not by the light of a campfire.

And, the hikers need to learn to read a damned map. There's a lot of 14ers that the approach is on Private Property. It's been a particularly well-documented problem in Park County.

The land owner can be held liable if people are injured on their property. Some were concerned that in our litigious society they might even be named in lawsuits as being the method of access to the mountain for people who do stupid things on the mountain and get hurt up there.

So the County has been requesting right-of-way access across the land in return for accepting the liability.

I would have to go do some searching, but I think a number of the Collegiate peaks have this problem. Not all.
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#3
Well to be fair, and this is my point of view, but if you hold a firearm up in a holster in front of my face...that's a threat to me. You point or wave a gun in my face, I'll shoot your ass and I'll claim self-defense. I don't care if I'm on your land or not.

There's really no reason to hold a firearm up in front of someone holstered or unholstered. Simply approach them, but maintain safe distance, notify them they are trespassing and request they leave. It's that simple.

If they become agitated or hostile, threatening or violent, then you pull your pistol and escort them off property at gunpoint...if they attack then you shoot them.

But being a landowner is not a right to be a jackass with a firearm. In Tennessee (and yes, I'm well aware I'm not in Tennessee anymore), that's called aggravated assault and is a felony. Rules are bit different here, and it's only a Class 2 Misdemeanor.

The issue is not trespassing. The issue is proper etiquette/behavior with a firearm and that is most certainly not it.

The point being, the landowner went overboard. 20 feet over a stupid line, is not grounds to wave a firearm in someone's face. Since he failed to notify the Sheriff, he obviously didn't feel THAT THREATENED, and instead he wanted to be some Barney badass show off with his gun. That's the mentality that he had, and it gives the rest of us gun owners and 2A rights supporters a bad name.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
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#4
If you shoot a landowner on his land after you trespass on his land and the sheriff comes to investigate and finds the body of the landowner with his weapon still holstered.

Uh I think those hikers would have a rather long stay at the expense of the taxpayer, maybe even LIFE.

Be carful what you do with your firearm.

Make sure you are defending your life and not you ego!!!!!
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#5
The point being here is the landowner had no reason to behave this way and it should not be condoned or tolerated. Simply owning land does not give you the right to act and respond like a jackass with a firearm.

Would you point a gun at a solicitor when they knock on your door to sell you something? or would you just ask they leave and not come back? If they leave, the situation is diffused. If they become agitated or threatening then it's perfectly acceptable to pull your firearm.

If someone comes to your door trying to sell you something, and you start immediately waving a gun at them and threatening them, you're in the wrong.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#6
I suppose it would have to argued pro and con in a court of law if someone is actually (brandishing )a firearm if it was never removed from the holster.

Sounds like the landowner acted in poor form , but then again it sounds like we only have one side of the story.
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#7
From what I gather they were hiking up to a point to camp in the dark and didn't see definitive markings of the land identifying the property boundaries. Unfortunately, the thread caused a big hubub on facebook and someone got their butthurt over it and deleted the thread. Wish I'd have taken a screen shot of it now. But neither hiker was armed and both claimed to have been friendly and cooperative with the landowner despite the "gun being lifted at face level while still in the holster".

absolutely true we only have one side of the story, and both hikers admitted they were in the wrong for the trespass, so with that type of integrity being displayed in the initial posting, my instincts suggest they are telling the truth. Being 20 feet over a boundary in the dark is not unreasonable, that could happen to even the most savvy of people. certainly does not merit a gun being displayed in an inappropriate manner. a simple, you're on the wrong side of the line, please move to the other side would have sufficed and nary an eyebrow would have been raised.

Pretty fine line to walk either way, and I'm sure a Sheriff would exercise discretion and dismiss it anyhow, because it would basically be a he said, she said type thing unless their was a video of the encounter.

anyhow, I thought it was a good one to discuss because it was as intricate of a situation as it was.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#8
After ten years of people being "just 20 feet over the line" every weekend, how would you feel?

Lines on maps exist for a reason. Remember the folks who claimed they "got lost" near an International border and got an all expenses visit to one of the country's prisons?

Similar situation in aviation... There's all sorts of airspace boundaries in the sky. Should I be flying a few feet by my GPS from them, or a mile?

The hikers need to learn how to navigate or not fly by night. ;)
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#9
in retrospect maybe the landowner needs to put up a fence in that area and mark it CLEARLY where it can be seen by day or night. I don't care how he feels after 10 years, sounds like that's his own problem for not properly marking his land and putting up a barrier.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#10
I know when we used to ride our ATV's in the Michigan UP that was the law , if the land was not posted it was legal to ride on but..... In Colorado to my understanding it's the other way around the hiker , biker etc. is responsible to know where the boundaries are and the landowner does not have to post.
I'm not a lawyer but I did sleep at a holiday express once, and it is my understanding that these hikers were guilty of illegal trespass.
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#11
That makes no sense. If the land isn't marked how do you know if you're trespassing or not?


I'm not disputing they were trespassing here, that's not the issue here at all. If you don't want people on your land, put up a fence and post a frickin' sign so everyone can see it, night or day. Then it's CLEAR AS DAY, and if people violate then have them ticketed. But you have no right to go showing a gun (holstered or not holstered) to people's faces without provocation of violence.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#12
All I can say is , the state of Colorado is not in agreement with your fencing and marking ideas.

If the gun stayed in the holster , in my opinion he didn't break any laws.

A police officer who walks up behind my car at a traffic stop with his hand on his holstered weapon is not brandishing.
The landowner may have been rude, he may have made insinuations and he may have bruised these hikers egos, none of which are illegal.
Untill I hear the landowners side I couldn't make any more assumptions than this.
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#13
I have no fence around my 3.5 acres. That isn't a reason for anyone to be on it.

Even the neighbor kids ask permission around here before using it as a short-cut to get to the bus stop in winter.

I can only imagine having land where the common access borders where Hansel and Gretyl pass by -- by the thousands each year -- for their little traipses up the hill to fetch some Facebook photos. :)

Of course, if I ever get around to building the wooden gateway/signage at the road, I've always wanted to post...

"If you can read this, you're in range."

Would that cover it? ;)
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#14
(07-09-2013, 04:24 PM)bufordtjustice Wrote:  A police officer who walks up behind my car at a traffic stop with his hand on his holstered weapon is not brandishing.
The landowner may have been rude, he may have made insinuations and he may have bruised these hikers egos, none of which are illegal.
Untill I hear the landowners side I couldn't make any more assumptions than this.

That is my line of thinking. Although not as politely. The "woe is me, I'm just a poor innocent hiker and we were totally respectful" thing may be true, but that isn't the experience I've seen with hikers who can't read a map. Personal responsibility, not landowner responsibility.


And why anyone would hold a gun up, at eye level, while still in a holster is beyond me. I don't buy that we are hearing anything near the full, unbiased story line.
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#15
a landowner is not a police officer, a landowner is not POST certified. having your hand on your holstered weapon is NOT the same as physically lifting up a holstered weapon to eye level in front of someone. your comparisons are HORRIBLE and nowhere near reasonably comparable. A police officer is doing his "job" and has the right to be suspicious and have his hand on his firearm.

as for why? I can only assume he did it for effect to show the hikers he "meant business", as that's the only thing that makes sense in my mind. But I wasn't there, I can only go by what was posted. Wish I had taken a screen shot when I had the chance. I doubt the hiker is lying or stretching the truth, why admit to wrongful inadvertent trespassing and own it, but lie about the confrontration or the landowner holding up a holstered weapon at eye level? That doesn't make any sense. It would be nice to have the landowner's side of the story though.
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#16
It was posted on the the internet, it must be true.

Bonjour!!
Reply
#17
lol. i see what you did there!
Sig Sauer P250 .40 S&W sub-compact
Trijicon night sights
(3) 10 round magazines.

Remington 870 12 ga. pump shotgun
Uncle Mike's Sling Mounts & Hooks | 15 shell sling | 56 shell bandolier | 25 shell belt | 4 chokes | Synthetic Black
10 shot Briley Extension Tube | Plano takedown hardcase

Custom Built AR-15
Surplus Arms & Ammo AR-15 Lower | 5.56 NATO or .223 compatible |
UTG 6 pt adjustable rear stock and buffer spring | Leapers UTG 3x12x44 SWAT Accushot - EZ Tap w/ illuminated reticle |
UTG Adjustable bi-pod | UTG ring scope mounts | Blackthorne 5.56 NATO Upper w/ 20" Bull Varmint Stainless Steel Barrel |
Magpul handguards w/ Delta Ring conventional gas tube setup (no piston) | Chrome Del-ton Bolt Carrier Group | DMPS Charging Handle |
DMPS Trigger | Magpul Trigger Guard | ProMag AR-15/M4 Heavy Duty Recoil Pad | 3 point SWAT Sling and sling hooks |
Nebo Tactical Flashlight and Laser Combo | 3 magpul picatinny rail mounts | Tactical Ergonomic Pistol Grip |
TMS Sling Swivel w/ Base | (20) - 30 round magazines |

Draw
Reply
#18
Because giving in to an obvious error on their part lends credibility to their yarn.


I'd still like to hear why anyone would ever hold up a holstered handgun and point it at someone.
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#19
(07-15-2013, 08:39 PM)Hammer03 Wrote:  I'd still like to hear why anyone would ever hold up a holstered handgun and point it at someone.

Maybe it was one if those useless and dangerous pocket holsters where there's a hole where the trigger guard is supposed to be?

Just a dumb thought after dinner and a long day at work. But have y'all seen those?

Gotta be the stupidest excuse for a holster I've ever seen. If there's nothing covering the trigger, what's the point?

Ahh, was looking for a link...

Here ya go... Serious stupidity... The DeSantis Pocket Shot...

http://www.cabelas.com/product/DeSantis-Pocket-Shot-Holster/1260245.uts
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#20
(07-15-2013, 08:58 PM)DenverPilot Wrote:  Maybe it was one if those useless and dangerous pocket holsters where there's a hole where the trigger guard is supposed to be?

Just a dumb thought after dinner and a long day at work. But have y'all seen those?

Gotta be the stupidest excuse for a holster I've ever seen. If there's nothing covering the trigger, what's the point?

Ahh, was looking for a link...

Here ya go... Serious stupidity... The DeSantis Pocket Shot...

http://www.cabelas.com/product/DeSantis-Pocket-Shot-Holster/1260245.uts

The point of this isn't so much to be a holster but to make the pistol look less like a pistol in the pocket and more like a wallet in the pocket yet still retain the easy access and use of the firearm.
Where can you carry? Check the editable COGO Carry Map
When in doubt. JFC.

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