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What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Printable Version

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What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - HannahBearCo - 09-24-2014

Ok, this could have gone in several different categories, but I chose this one, because it seemed the best fit for the topic at hand.

It's not 2A specific. It wasn't really Colorado Law applicable and didn't belong in Politics. However, if a mod or admin feels it needs to be moved, then I digress.


Ok, so you've been involved in a self-defense shooting. Bad guy is neutralized or dead. Now what do you do? First you need to call 911. But before you make any statements, you need to know EXACTLY what to do and what to say. Your life and freedom could depend on what you say next.

This was forwarded to me by an attorney (I'm just relaying info here, not giving anyone any legal advice).

Studies show in officer involved shootings that it's best to wait 72 hours to give a full and formal statement.

These 2 articles really provide some great insight as to why.


http://www.policeone.com/health-fitness/articles/2602214-New-findings-support-delaying-interviews-after-an-OIS/

http://lris.com/2014/04/23/force-science-institute-details-reasons-for-delaying-interviews-with-ois-survivors/

To summarize, studies show that the mind is fresh after 72 hours. You don't have adrenaline pumping through your body, your mind isn't racing to remember facts, you don't have positive or negative endorphins clouding your brain and memory.

In a nutshell, if you're involved in a self-defense shooting, give a very watered down version of what happened, inform the officer or investigators you're willing to cooperate fully with the investigation, however, at this time you can not make a formal and complete statement until you contact your attorney. The attorney will then make arrangements to accompany you to the police station and to be present during questioning.

This also helps ensure your rights are protected, you aren't badgered or coerced into saying something that could be used against you or misconstrued by overzealous investigators or prosecutors.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - mfinley919 - 09-25-2014

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to not say anything, as anything you same might incriminate yourself without an attorney present, but just be aware that you will be going to jail at that point and waiting for your attorney there. The police will not be saying, "No problem come down on Wed next week with your attorney, and excuse us as we drag this dead guy out of your living room, see you Wed." The police will be investigating the scene and assume everyone there is the potential guilty party and the bad guy until they can be convinced otherwise through the evidence and the statements given. Without statements they will be taking you to jail until they can sort it out.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - cloudcroft - 09-26-2014

What to do immediately after a shooting?

Well, being a simple gorilla, I see things simply. So immediately after a shooting, I immediately reload.

Just in case.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - HannahBearCo - 09-26-2014

(09-25-2014, 05:53 PM)mfinley919 Wrote: I'm not saying it's a bad idea to not say anything, as anything you same might incriminate yourself without an attorney present, but just be aware that you will be going to jail at that point and waiting for your attorney there. The police will not be saying, "No problem come down on Wed next week with your attorney, and excuse us as we drag this dead guy out of your living room, see you Wed." The police will be investigating the scene and assume everyone there is the potential guilty party and the bad guy until they can be convinced otherwise through the evidence and the statements given. Without statements they will be taking you to jail until they can sort it out.

depends on the situation and if the police have reason or evidence to believe that you're lying, hiding something, misrepresenting evidence, have moved or tampered with physical evidence.

I never said anything about NOT giving them a statement. If you'd read, you would see that. You gotta tell them something. if you give them a basic version, guy confronted me, pulled a knife and demanded cash, I pulled my weapon and fired x amount of rounds and called 911. You are NOT required to give them every detail right after the shooting.

After you give them that statement, you tell them, that's all the info I can give you at this time, you want to contact your attorney and you will come down to the station and give a full statement..they can not hold you based on that.

Once you mention the fact that you want your attorney, all questioning MUST stop right then and there. It's under the Miranda rights.

You'll have to give them your attorney's name and phone # if you have it, or as soon as you have that info contact them and give it to them.

But unless things look obviously not as you say, or they have a reason to suspect foul play on your part, they're not going to hold you.

They will take your firearm as evidence and the shell casings, and do a full crime scene investigation (take blood/hair samples/dna, pictures, etc and they may close off the crime scene and require you to go to a friend, a family members or a hotel.


Several websites regarding self-defense back up what I'm saying

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/10-things-you-should-never-do-after-self-defense-shooting

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/what-do-after-self-defense-shooting


What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - PhilaBOR - 09-27-2014

This is a good book on the subject:
http://www.gunlaws.com/AYS.htm
The gun's hot, the perp's not, now what?


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - mfinley919 - 09-28-2014

From you own link : " It's best to assume that you will be handcuffed, placed prone on the ground, locked in the back of a cruiser, or even jailed. "

Basically what I said.

Personally, I'd be more on the side of giving little to no statement. Every word you use will be used against you in a court of law if it comes to it.

People have suffered the consequences (convicted sentence) just based on their choice of words used in their description of the incident as reported to the investigating officers in defensive shootings, because those end up being jury trials.

The difference between :

"I told the person to stop or I'll shoot"

and

"I told the person to leave me alone, I'm armed with a firearm.

The former in a trial by jury becomes interpreted that the defensive shooter took an aggressive stance with the criminal, the latter statement is passive. You will be on trial and the jury will be looking for evidence that you had absolutely no choice but to shoot, the former statement to a jury is aggressive and 50% of the time the jury would find you guilty.

Every word you use will be used against you if you end up in trial. Better to issue no statements, ask for your lawyer and wait for him to get you released from jail, than trying to be a lawyer in trying to give a neutral statement. My point was and still is that when you do this, expect to go to jail.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - cloudcroft - 09-29-2014

It seems "the authorities" (and legal system) use anything you say that can hurt you, but disregard anything you say that can help you. An often seen phenomenon even in the old Perry Mason TV series: The DA's (apparent) myopic quest for a conviction instead of as it SHOULD be: A quest for justice.

So much for the American legal concept of "innocent until proven guilty."

Right...what a joke.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - mfinley919 - 09-29-2014

Unfortunately with so many divided on firearms, political motivations and public pressures for elected officials pushing them to pursue an agenda to their liking, government prosecutors aren't as neutral as you'd hope for when it comes to any firearms related crimes, especially any that make the media.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Highwayman - 10-05-2014

There is a new post at Legal Insurrection on this topic today. I have no comment as I have not made time to view the hour long video. I do believe Andrew Branca to be a good source.

Quote:Some of you may be familiar with a popular Youtube video entitled “Don’t talk to police.” And by popular, I mean POPULAR; it’s had over 4 million views.

In that video a lawyer makes an energetic argument that you should never talk to the police under any circumstances, ever.

It’s long been my position that this is excellent advice for actual criminals who have caught the attention of the police, but is less suited to those engaging in lawful self-defense.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/10/debunking-dont-talk-to-police/


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Beau - 10-07-2014

(10-05-2014, 01:53 PM)Highwayman Wrote: There is a new post at Legal Insurrection on this topic today. I have no comment as I have not made time to view the hour long video. I do believe Andrew Branca to be a good source.


http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/10/debunking-dont-talk-to-police/

I disagree wholeheartedly with his quote. A person may be completely in the right but after being in such a situation can leave a person rattled. I think it best to not speak until you've consulted an attorney. I don't see what could possibly be gained by doing otherwise.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - since9 - 10-19-2014

It's a common misconception that you're not liable for anything you say until after they read your Miranda rights.

Not true!

That only applies after you've been arrested. Specifically, "Miranda rights or Miranda rule, is a warning given by police in the United States to criminal suspects in police custody (or in a custodial interrogation) before they are interrogated to preserve the admissibility of their statements against them in criminal proceedings."

"In Miranda v. Arizona, the Supreme Court held that the admission of an elicited incriminating statement by a suspect not informed of these rights violates the Fifth Amendment and the Sixth Amendment right to counsel."

The key point here is whether or not you're under any real or perceived control by law enforcement. If you are, then you must be Mirandized, else what you say while under such control may be inadmissible.

If you're not under police control, there's no allowance for any perceived coercion, and what you say can indeed be used against you, even though no one has read you your rights.

Admissible: An off-duty cop overhears you bragging about criminal activity involving drugs. He arrests you, reads you your rights, at which point you shut up. He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing. He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

Even though all this was based on your comments before you were Mirandized, they're admissible because there was no perception of coercion.

Admissible: An off-duty cop suspects you of criminal activity involving drugs. He identifies himself, and begins to question you. During the course of the interrogation, you break down and admit you're in possession of doing drugs. He arrests you, reads you your rights, at which point you shut up. He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing. He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

Even though all this was based on your comments before you were Mirandized, they're admissible because mere questioning by a police officer isn't considered control, so even though you might perceive it as coercion, the courts would rule you were free to walk away.

Inadmissible: An off-duty cop suspects you of criminal activity involving drugs. He identifies himself, arrests you and begins to question you. During the course of the interrogation, you break down and admit you're in possession of doing drugs. He reads you your rights, at which point you shut up. He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing. He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

The moment the cop arrests you, you're under his control. Since he obtained a confession before you were Mirandized, the courts will assume coercion and will not admit the confession. Thus, the chain of evidence breaks at the point of confession, and the entire case is tossed.

The Point: of the above is to highly the importance of keeping your lips zipped! That doesn't mean you shouldn't help with the immediate situation. If there was an accomplice who got away, it's up to you to let them know. I would say something along the lines of, "I think he may have had an accomplice, and he took off down that alley." By using "I think" and "may," you're not committing, but you are informing. What the cops do with that is up to them.

If they start questioning you, however, you're well within your rights to insist on consulting with an attorney.

One word about memory: It changes rapidly over time, even three days. Thus, if you're allowed to go home, DO write down everything that night, and double-space it. In the subsequent days, do NOT change anything, but as you have additional insight, write that down as well.

Do share this with your attorney, but NONE OTHER. Your family and friends are ALL subject to being questioned by the police, and most of them will NOT keep their big yaps shut! If asked, "What did he tell you?" they'll tell ALL! You want the police report to indicate, "brother said he was visibly shaken by the event, but wouldn't talk about it; wife reported he didn't sleep, but despite repeated queries, he said, 'I need to speak with our attorney before I tell you anything.'"

Two additional points:

1. As cloudcroft mentioned, reload. Who knows? The accomplice who escaped might return with friends before the police arrive.

2. As the police arrive, be prepared to unload and place your unloaded firearm on the ground or a counter, then back up a few steps with your hands on your head BEFORE the cops enter. A holstered firearm is a threat with a high potential. Do not be that high threat, as that's when accidents/overeagerness happens.


Re: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - HannahBearCo - 10-21-2014

im gonna have fun in law school some day...if i can ever get these stinking student loans paid off. lol.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - cloudcroft - 10-21-2014

"1. As cloudcroft mentioned, reload. Who knows? The accomplice who escaped might return with friends before the police arrive." -- since9


Please keep in mind that's all my simple gorilla brain can process so I can only act within those simple & primitive parameters. -- Gen. Ursus (Planet of the Apes)


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Gunsane - 03-13-2015

You are the first one to actually answer the question, i.e. how to handle the weapon, and so on.
Way too much bloviation here in general, all "bad ass" garbage, much of which makes the posters all sound like criminals to begin with.
Clearly, the point of this question should be, how to properly and responsibly behave after such a dire situation unfolds. If you really fear additional attackers, maybe reloading isn't an idle boast; I think the question was asked in the light of dealing with aftermath, from handling 911 call onward, and knowing where and how to safely and clearly present yourself, your weapon, the crime scene (it is, independent of your culpability), weapons the perp may have had, until and when officers arrive on scene, etc.
First impressions are huge, and if you come across as a responsible citizen, sobered by your need to act in the face of a threat, cooperative and serious about dealing with the situation as directed by law enforcement, that behavior is going to carry a lot of weight, in court, when ascribing blame and responsibility is based on the first responders' testimony.
If you appear uncooperative, belligerent, inappropriately Rambo cocky or arrogant or boastful, happy over mortally wounding another human being, and finally getting the chance to "take out one of those MFs", don't be surprised when you receive an entirely different sort of interrogation, and an entirely different possible outcome.
I suspect the police are expecting at least some initial statement as to the incident, and waiting 72 hours seems a bit peculiar, especially if they cannot determine additional involvement of accomplices, their location and further threat to you or the neighborhood, and so on. If you immediately feel the tone of questioning is hostile or directed against you, request to be taken to the station and politely ask to contact an attorney before further questions are asked, knowing that your statements are all evidence, even after you request an attorney, should you continue talking. Miranda rights only precede an actual arrest; even with an attorney present, everything you say without coercion is also admissible. The attorney's role basically will be telling you to shut up.

(10-19-2014, 11:25 PM)since9 Wrote: It's a common misconception that you're not liable for anything you say until after they read your Miranda rights.

Not true!

That only applies after you've been arrested.  Specifically, "Miranda rights or Miranda rule, is a warning given by police in the United States to criminal suspects in police custody (or in a custodial interrogation) before they are interrogated to preserve the admissibility of their statements against them in criminal proceedings."

"In Miranda v. Arizona, the Supreme Court held that the admission of an elicited incriminating statement by a suspect not informed of these rights violates the Fifth Amendment and the Sixth Amendment right to counsel."

The key point here is whether or not you're under any real or perceived control by law enforcement.  If you are, then you must be Mirandized, else what you say while under such control may be inadmissible.  

If you're not under police control, there's no allowance for any perceived coercion, and what you say can indeed be used against you, even though no one has read you your rights.

Admissible:  An off-duty cop overhears you bragging about criminal activity involving drugs.  He arrests you, reads you your rights, at which point you shut up.  He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing.  He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

Even though all this was based on your comments before you were Mirandized, they're admissible because there was no perception of coercion.

Admissible:  An off-duty cop suspects you of criminal activity involving drugs.  He identifies himself, and begins to question you.  During the course of the interrogation, you break down and admit you're in possession of doing drugs.  He arrests you, reads you your rights, at which point you shut up.  He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing.  He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

Even though all this was based on your comments before you were Mirandized, they're admissible because mere questioning by a police officer isn't considered control, so even though you might perceive it as coercion, the courts would rule you were free to walk away.

Inadmissible:  An off-duty cop suspects you of criminal activity involving drugs.  He identifies himself, arrests you and begins to question you.  During the course of the interrogation, you break down and admit you're in possession of doing drugs.  He reads you your rights, at which point you shut up.  He searches your vehicle without your consent, but finds nothing.  He obtains a search warrant, searches your home, and finds drugs.

The moment the cop arrests you, you're under his control.  Since he obtained a confession before you were Mirandized, the courts will assume coercion and will not admit the confession.  Thus, the chain of evidence breaks at the point of confession, and the entire case is tossed.

The Point:  of the above is to highly the importance of keeping your lips zipped!  That doesn't mean you shouldn't help with the immediate situation.  If there was an accomplice who got away, it's up to you to let them know.  I would say something along the lines of, "I think he may have had an accomplice, and he took off down that alley."  By using "I think" and "may," you're not committing, but you are informing.  What the cops do with that is up to them.

If they start questioning you, however, you're well within your rights to insist on consulting with an attorney.

One word about memory:  It changes rapidly over time, even three days.  Thus, if you're allowed to go home, DO write down everything that night, and double-space it.  In the subsequent days, do NOT change anything, but as you have additional insight, write that down as well.  

Do share this with your attorney, but NONE OTHER.  Your family and friends are ALL subject to being questioned by the police, and most of them will NOT keep their big yaps shut!  If asked, "What did he tell you?" they'll tell ALL!  You want the police report to indicate, "brother said he was visibly shaken by the event, but wouldn't talk about it; wife reported he didn't sleep, but despite repeated queries, he said, 'I need to speak with our attorney before I tell you anything.'"

Two additional points:

1.  As cloudcroft mentioned, reload.  Who knows?  The accomplice who escaped might return with friends before the police arrive.

2.  As the police arrive, be prepared to unload and place your unloaded firearm on the ground or a counter, then back up a few steps with your hands on your head BEFORE the cops enter.  A holstered firearm is a threat with a high potential.  Do not be that high threat, as that's when accidents/overeagerness happens.



What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - PhilaBOR - 03-14-2015

(10-19-2014, 11:25 PM)since9 Wrote: 2. As the police arrive, be prepared to unload and place your unloaded firearm on the ground or a counter, then back up a few steps with your hands on your head BEFORE the cops enter. A holstered firearm is a threat with a high potential. Do not be that high threat, as that's when accidents/overeagerness happens.

I WOULD NOT REACH FOR MY GUN TO PUT IT DOWN AS THE POLICE ARRIVE!!! Unless I wanted to get shot. If you're sure the threat is ended you may put the gun down before the police get there. I think I would re-holster in case the threat arises Terminator-like or his friends arrive. When the cops get there I would OBEY THEIR COMMANDS. If there is an opportunity I would start by telling them I have a permit, then where my weapons are on my body.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - NealS - 02-06-2018

reload.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Lead Junkie - 02-19-2018

haha. Good point. There might be more of them.


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - O2HeN2 - 02-19-2018

(03-14-2015, 06:38 AM)PhilaBOR Wrote: I WOULD NOT REACH FOR MY GUN TO PUT IT DOWN AS THE POLICE ARRIVE!!!  Unless I wanted to get shot. If you're sure the threat is ended you may put the gun down before the police get there. I think I would re-holster in case the threat arises Terminator-like or his friends arrive. When the cops get there I would OBEY THEIR COMMANDS. If there is an opportunity I would start by telling them I have a permit, then where my weapons are on my body.


Not REACHING for your gun is a given. This is in the narrow case where the police arrive while the gun is in your hands AND you have a chance to put it down before they have guns trained on you (like as the first car drives up).

The OBEY THEIR COMMANDS might not be as easy as it sounds. Three cars drive up, cops pile out of each and simultaneously give the orders: “Don’t move!”, “Drop the gun!” and “Get down on the ground!”

Now what? The answer is “don’t move” until the three of them sort out who’s giving the orders. If they continue to give conflicting commands, you’re already in a no win situation and you might start replying “Just one of you give orders and I’ll comply!” or somesuch. But things will be looking pretty grim for you at that point anyway.

O2


RE: What to do immediately after a self-defense shooting - Joni - 08-20-2018

I agree that you need to call the police. But it happens that being in a stressful situation, a person can not control himself and his movements.